Weather helm on CSY 33

[Michael Briggs]

My problem is: I have pretty severe weather helm on my 33 and have not been able to reduce it. Every sail increases it.
The jib is actually the worst. I think its about a 120% genoa. I made sure the forestay and jib halyard were good and tight.
When reaching she is constantly heading up, then takes a lot of rudder to bring her back on course and then she falls off.
Any one sail (jib, main and even staysail) will cause weather helm as will any combination.
I have some load forward, but only 55 lbs worth of anchor and 60ft of 5/16" chain on the bow, plus some provisions and parts. Based on the waterline she does seem a little heavy by the bow, but there is no room to store more goods aft.
The lazarettes are full to overflowing including lots of line, extra batteries and two big steel scuba tanks, so I don't think I can add any weight back there without relocating the fuel tanks.

Any ideas?
I'm in Merritt Island, FL and would love to take someone with more experience for a sail or sail on another CSY 33 to learn something.

[Peter Roach]

You mentioned "back on course and then she falls off". Are you sure this is weather helm and not "Griping" (old English term - I am not sure what they call it now). Griping occurs when you have too much weight forward. It can happen on power boats as well as sailboats. What happens is the boat constantly tries to turn from one side to the other. Often times when a boat is griping you will have to start reacting before the boat starts turning by itself and the boat does not quickly answer the helm. This trait will drive the autopilot (and biopilot) nuts when steering for a long period of time.

 A good way of determine if your boat is griping is to check if you have problems holding a straight course while under power and no sails?

If you find griping is causing your problem - To correct griping you have to move stuff out of the bow. You would have to add a lot of weight to the stern to correct the problem. The best way to view all weight on a sailboat is using foot pounds from the mast (assuming the mast is designed correctly and is in the correct place). One pound one foot away from the mast is 1 foot pound. One pound 20 foot from the mast is 20 foot pounds. If you look at the weight that way you have a 55lb anchor and 60' of chain (5/16 is about a pound a foot) let's say 15' from the mast. This means you have 1725 foot pounds in your bow. Every foot you can move your chain back is like taking 60 foot pounds off of your boat. Some people even try to run the chain down into the bilge to get it out of the bow (I have never had much luck with this - works for racing boats that rarely anchor). Any supplies in the bow also need to be considered.

Oddly enough most boats are not nearly as sensitive to weight behind the mast.

[Daq Hanssen]

I have plenty of stuff in the bow and chainlocker, but griping is not the problem, weather helm is..

Let the main-sheet loose and if you still have severe weather helm, then tune the rig and the mast.

I am so used to it now that it does not bother me much, but trimming sails will solve most of the problem..

[Michael Briggs]

Thanks for your analysis Peter.
I'm pretty sure its not griping. Under power it is easy to keep it on course when at the helm. Of course, as soon as I leave the helm she will head towards either shallows or the most dangerous or expensive object nearby.
It falls off because as I point away from the wind the weather helm force drops dramatically.

I will try some "weight management" before loading it all back up and see if I can get it to work better.
I don't think I want to bend the mast forward. Mainsail draft is good now and bending it forward would not be good. Since its keel-stepped I can't rake it forward significantly. I'd probably have to get a jib with a shorter luff too.
Letting the sheet out does little. As I said, I can drop the mainsail and still have bad weather helm.

I don't want to get used to it. I want to fix it. A rig you can't balance seems like a bad rig.
Does anyone have a 33 that is well balanced on all or most points of sail in fresh winds?


 

[Daq Hanssen]

As I said, I can drop the mainsail and still have bad weather helm.

Seems like you have a uniqe problem then..The mainsail is what causes the weather helm, at least on my boat..

I don't want to get used to it. I want to fix it. A rig you can't balance seems like a bad rig.

Let me know what you find out and how you "fix" it.

[Jonathan]

...Just out of curiosity, do you have a dodger/enclosure or stern arch, or anything else that might be adding significant windage out back?

[Michael Briggs]

I have a big bimini, and it occurred to me that it might be pushing the stern leeward. I folded it up last voyage and it did not seem to make a significant difference, but winds were light so weather helm was not extreme.

[RosalieAnn]

Charlee Poindexter reported a severe weather helm problem on her 33, and I think one of the guys said it was because of a too large headsail.  Her boat has gone through a couple of name changes since she had it - it was a late 33 and when she had it the name was Star Flyer.  I should be able to remember what the last name for it was, but I can't.

[Sherry McCampbell]

I found this on the old Topica site:

As a new 33 owner I'm interested in how other 33 owners balance their
boat under sail. I'm hoping to shorten my learning curve on the
handling os this boat,

(For the last 25 yrs I owned a sloop with hanked on genny, jib,
stormjib, and twin shoal draft keels. It had it's own
characteristics....)

My 33 has a RF genny (not sure of % yet), stays'l on a removable stay,
and asymmetrical spinnaker in a sock. What combinations do you use in
what circumstances, particularly balancing for easy a/p effort?

I queried Max, currently in the Azores, and he sent me the following
which I post with his permission:

-----------------------------------------

As far as sail balancing, it is very difficult to get any real balanced
helm on the boat. It doesn't bother me too much since I always use the
autopilot and a weather helm tends to make an easier job for it.

Whenever the wind is aft of beam, I take the staysail down. It blocks
the headsail and causes it to luff. I always sail with it up otherwise.
Not because of the extra power it adds (which is minimal) but I use it
as a storm sail. Too much sail - roll in the jib and poof - storm
rigged.

Offshore, I am very conservative these days. I got tired of fixing
things that break when you stress them trying to get an extra knot out
of her. Here is how I sail:

Full rig - Main, Stay, Head. I sail that way until enough wind to heel
20 degrees. When I am heeled over more than 20 degrees, I reef the main.
Reef Rig - Reefed Main, Stay, Head.

When I am heeled over more than 20 degrees with the Reefed rig, I roll
in the jib. Storm Rig - Reefed Main, Stay. When the rail starts to bury
while storm rigged (around 30 degrees of heel) you are in a gale. Time
to take down the main and

(1) heave to by taking the staysail traveler all the way to windward,
cranking down hard on the staysail sheet, and locking the wheel trying
to point the boat into the wind.

(2) run under staysail alone. Heaved to the boat points about 60 degrees
off the wind and loses ground to the lee about 2-3 knots. You can run at
to about 130 degrees off the wind and up to about 8-9 knots boat speed.

When staysail alone is too much sail, you pray. Then, you have to go on
the foredeck and take the staysail down in the sea state that 45-50
knots of wind give you. The best I hope for is to be able to drop it on
the deck and lash it down without either getting hurt or thrown
overboard. Under bare poles you can either (1) lie ahull - like heave to
but without any sail or (2) run with the wind. I have only gone this
far twice in 8,000 offshore miles. Fortunately, my destination both
times was generally downwind, so I was able to run with the wind.

[Sherry McCampbell]

And a follow-up discussion...

Paul,

Thanks for your comments. I am on max's mailing list and have been
following his travels.

Regarding the rudder, is there a shape that would be more appropriate?
(I'm not planning on hacking mine, just wondering).

My copy of the survey which listed the new sails is down on the boat so
I don't know the size. But I do know that it is brand new, like the
main. (During delivery I used the old sails, which were still in pretty
good shape, IMO).

I've been watching some great videos. Brian Toss has two: "Inspecting
Your Rig" and "Tuning Your Rig". And North Sails "The Shape of Speed".
Very good! Even after owning a boat for 25 yrs I am learning a lot. Wish
I had seen them long ago. Bought them all for less that the cost of one
hour with a rigger.

--------------------------<previous below>---------------

I'll start off by saying Max is pretty accurate about a few things. One
area he fails to bring up is the rudder. The barndoor rudder is subject
to a lot of rudder loading. It's easy to think it is weather helm as you
need to pull pretty hard on the wheel. You'll notice you get it when
heeled over a great deal on any point of sail. Reducing the heel always
reduces the loading. It's just a side effect of the rudder and you can't
control it except with the heel angle. There is a plus side though - you
shouldn't see lee helm much if ever.

You'll find you have trouble pointing closer than 50 degrees without a
great reduction in speed. A bigger genoa would help there too. Shadowfax
suffers from a high yankee except in winds over 20 knots when it works
better than a full genoa. I have flown all the sails in 25 knots on a
close reach going across the bay to Cape Charles from Yorktown. The boat
laid over more than 30 degrees but she flew. It made easy work crashing
through the waves running 4 - 6 ft. It's the one time the short
frequency waves of the bay won't really vex your progress. The short
chop on the bay is maybe the worst stuff you can have and if going
directly into it motoring is not easy.

I would invest in a good sized genoa. Not a big deck sweeper but small
enough it does not cover the stations. For light air Shadowfax isn't
well equipped. For us running on the main or the genoa was about the
same due to the small nature of the jib. Having a small one is of
course a good idea too for any off shore trips as it would be safer. As
with Max I have flown just the head sails when it gets blowing hard and
on a beam reach to a broad reach it makes it a lot easier to handle
because it reduces the heeling a LOT and takes the load off the rudder.
Reefing the main early will help due the same thing too. Max is a real
staysail fanatic that's for sure. Not sure if you heard about the trip
to the Azores this fall. I think he went most of the way on his
staysail. It didn't get blessed with good weather either.

It's taken me a long time to figure the issue of the rudder loading and
I never really understood why until we got the Gozzard. The ones before
1997 have a similar barn door rudder and so have some of the same CSY 33
rudder properties. More head sail helps maintain power and a little less
main will lessen the heel.

Play around with the staysail it's a great tool and is easy to manage
when it gets ugly.

[Daq Hanssen]

Good point on the rudder.

I had a new rudder made and with a different shape than stock CSY.

That could have helped on the weather helm issue.

[Daq Hanssen]

[David Boyd]

I also had considerable weather helm on my 33.  Around 12 years I added approximately 16 or 18 inches on her keel on the aft side, of course.  I was not exactly sure what was going to happen, but hoped it would solve the problem.  I tried everything with the sails to no avail.  I used to have a 45' John Seward design wooden ketch that I could leave the helm for 15 or 20 minutes at a time without the wind vane attached.  Talk about spoiling one.  Anyway the addition really balanced the vessel out.  I can leave the helm for several minutes without even using the wheel brake.  Really made a difference in the boat.  A pleasure to sail now.   

[Daq Hanssen]

Around 12 years I added approximately 16 or 18 inches on her keel on the aft side,

Did you close the gap between keel and skeg?

Was the boat more reluctant to do sharp turns after the mod? (Like maneuvering in
a marina or a canal)

How did you do the nuts and bolts of the mod? Glassed in plywood or what?

Got any pictures?

Thanks

[David Boyd]

Dag,

I left enough space for aft lifting slings to support the weight of the hull.  I used tapered cedar roofing shingles over a 1" marine ply base, all saturated in West Epoxy.  Then faired with silical filler, one layer of fiberglass mat for a base and to give a base for faring.   On top of this I installed two layers of biaxial roving  alternate directions saturated in epoxy resin.  The original poleyester was ground out back appx. 8-12"  to accomodate the mat and roving.  Epoxy was used as it adhers to polyester better than polyester adhers to polyester resin, and is also a hell of a lot more flexible.  No problems after all of these years.  Glass thickness anywhere from 3/8-1/2".  Would probably support slings, but not going to try.   Took lots of picts, but cant find any of them.

No difference at slow speed docking or backing.